'While I would never wish for anyone to go through what we are, it has brought out the best in us by making each one of us a better version of ourselves.'
'Being courageous, fighting for freedom, taking the burden of responsibility to help each other...'
'I know hundreds and hundreds of examples where Ukrainians are risking their lives for complete strangers and it is only in moments like this that we truly understand what it means to be human.'
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has invited US President Donald Trump to visit his war-ravaged country to understand the extent of the horrors of Russia's large-scale destruction of homes and churches, hospitals and schools and the deaths of thousands of civilians including children.
On Palm Sunday, April 13, a Russian ballistic missile attack killed at least 34 people in Sumy and left hundreds injured.
"To understand what is happening in Ukraine you have to understand what is happening to its people," says Oleksandra Matviichuk, a human rights lawyer and the 2022 Nobel Peace Laureate who heads Ukraine's Center for Civil Liberties.
CCL, a human rights organisation based in Kyiv, has been documenting war crimes and human rights violations as well as advocating for international justice since Russia began its large-scale war in February 2022 in Ukraine.
In the third and concluding part of the interview, as fears of a Russian attack on Poland increase and thereby war with NATO signatories, Oleksandra talks about justice and peace, life and rebuilding, and living in a country which she says will always be at threat from Russia's expansionism and empire building.
"The problem is not only in Putin. The problem is with Russia and that Russia is an empire. An empire has a centre but no borders. An empire always seeks to expand and seize new territories. And people in Russia have this imperial mindset, it is part of Russian culture," Oleksandra tells Swarupa Dutt/Rediff.
- Part I of the Interview: 'Putin Is A Liar'
- Part II of the Interview: 'Putin Is The Biggest Child Kidnapper'
What is justice to you, Oleksandra? How will your organisation get justice for Ukraine and Ukrainians?
I'm sorry to keep giving you examples, but unless you look at the human picture, it is difficult to understand.
So, in the first months of the war in 2022, Oleksandr Shelipov (62), an unarmed civilian was shot in the head in the Sumy region.
His death received huge media coverage only because it was the first trial after the large-scale war started (a Russian soldier was given life imprisonment for the murder).
I heard Oleksandr's wife Katerina in court and she said, 'My husband was an ordinary farmer, but he was my whole universe and now I have lost everything.'
Justice is knowing that the soldier who killed Oleksandr is in jail. While this war turned people into numbers, we believe that people are not numbers and that the life of each person matters.
And with justice we return to the people their names, regardless of who they are, their position in society, the types of crime they endured, and whether or not media or international organisations are interested in their case.
I worked with people affected by the war directly and justice also means different things to different people.
For some it is to see their perpetrators behind bars, for others it is monetary compensation for what they have lost.
Some people only want to know what happened to their loved ones, finding the answer is justice for them. And only when you get justice can you know that your life too is important.
Do you think something like the Nuremberg trials will happen after the war ends?
In the history of humankind, we have only one had one such precedent of the trial of war criminals and it was the Nuremberg trial.
But Nuremberg was a victor's trial. It was a trial where Nazi war criminals were tried only after the Nazi regime had collapsed.
It was in the last century, but we live in a new one. We have a historical task for humankind which is to make justice independent of when and how the war will end, which means that there is no need to wait.
We must establish a special tribunal on aggression now and hold Putin and his top leadership and the military command of the Russian State accountable because all the horror which we have documented is a result of the leadership's decision to start this bloody war.
How will documentation by the CCL help people seek justice?
In the autumn of 2022, a few months after the large-scale war began, Ukrainians were asked what will be their biggest disappointment after the war ends and 65 per cent of Ukrainians answered it would be impunity for Russian war crimes.
Russia has never been punished for any of the war crimes they have committed in Chechnya or Georgia or Syria.
We have documented targeted killings, enforced disappearances or abductions of civilians, including journalists and local officials. These are crimes against humanity.
We have a historical responsibility to break this chain of impunity, not just for people in Ukraine, but in order to prevent the next Russian attack, to the next nation.
As a lawyer, I know that it's very difficult because international justice is always delayed.
But we also know that authoritarian regimes have collapsed and their leaders, who see themselves as untouchable and invincible, have appeared in court.
But right now, given the geopolitical situation, we have no chance to transfer Putin to The Hague (where the International Court of Justice, the judicial organ of the UN is located).
Tomorrow when the situation changes we will present in the courts -- not our tears, not our memories -- but documented evidences.
This is the most documented war in human history.
How are you going about the documentation? Is your organisation doing it alone?
We have to create a comprehensive strategy for justice with different elements and institutions and it is not possible to do this mammoth task alone.
We rely on people and when large-scale war started, we built a national network of local documentators.
We united our efforts with dozens and dozens of regional organisations and we covered the whole country including the occupied territories with this network.
We jointly documented more than 84,000 cases of war crimes.
We use different methods. We collect testimonies of victims or witnesses.
We send mobile groups to work in the occupied territories (Russia occupies 70 per cent of the occupied territories).
We analyse open data with further verification to ascertain the truth.
For example if Russia hits a hospital, our local documentators will take their own photos and videos, speak with victims and record everything that they have witnessed.
Would it be correct to say that almost every family in Ukraine has lost someone in the large-scale war?
The last survey said that 80 per cent of Ukrainians have mentioned that they have lost someone in their close circle, or in their immediate family. The war has knocked on almost every door.
How many reports of human rights abuses and war crimes do you receive every day on an average since the war began?
We work proactively, so we do not just passively receive this information; we actively find instances of abuse and the numbers are mind-boggling.
Russia is trying to win this war pragmatically -- use violence against civilians on such an enormous scale that they do not have the will to rebel.
So far we have documented 84,000 cases of human rights abuses.
How do you go about getting the information from the occupied territories?
We collect evidence and testimonies from victims or witnesses of war crimes.
We send mobile groups to work in the occupied territories (in the 30 per cent not held by Russia in the occupied territories) because every village is a torture chamber.
Knock on any door and people will tell you horrific tales of what they have endured or witnessed.
We put down names, family details, addresses, and the incident.
We analyse open data because there are a lot of photos and videos which Russian soldiers have made themselves and they help in building evidence and identify perpetrators.
We always verify if the video or information given to us is fake or otherwise and only then document it.
Okhmatdyt was the largest paediatric hospital in Urkaine and Russia deliberately bombed and destroyed it.
We documented every detail with photos, videos, testimonies from children, parents, medical personnel. We do this at every single instance of a hit.
How does information from the occupied territories reach you?
Communications from and to the occupied territories are difficult and dangerous, eyewitness accounts difficult to get, and information not easily available.
But this is the 21st century and we have digital tools which help us communicate and collect evidence which we couldn't even dream of 30 years ago, for example, during the Yugoslavia war or in the Balkans war. Russia tried to block the Internet, but there are other means to elicit information.
How many civilians have been taken hostage and how many Ukrainian soldiers are prisoners of war?
There is a difference between the two.
First, international humanitarian law allows a country the right to take prisoners of war (PoW), but it is obligatory to treat them with dignity, provide medical assistance and proper food.
The Geneva Conventions of 1949 prohibits torture or inhuman treatment of PoWs including sexual violence.
Ukraine provides open access to Russian prisoners of war to the UN and all international representatives.
Russia didn't even allow the Red Cross to visit Ukrainian POWs and violated every provision of humanitarian law in the manner in which the POW were treated.
Now, coming to civilians. While international humanitarian law allows enemy soldiers to be taken POW, it prohibits doing the same with civilians.
Russia has illegally jailed thousands and thousands of civilians -- men, women and even children.
I personally interviewed hundreds of civilians who survived Russian captivity and they told me how they were beaten, raped, stuffed into wooden boxes, their fingers cut, their nails were ripped out or drilled.
They were given electric shocks on their genitalia. One woman told me how her eye was gouged out with a spoon.
There is no legitimate reason for doing such things. There is no military necessity either. Russians do this to civilians because they can and as a tactic in war.
We have received 4,000 requests for help from relatives of abducted civilians. And ours is only one organisation, so the actual numbers are unclear. It's thousands and thousands and thousands.
Among all the testimonies that you have received that your team has gone out and got, is there that one story that broke your heart?
Unfortunately there are just too many. I never personally record children's stories; I draw the line there, because it's very difficult.
My colleague interviewed the woman I'm going to tell you about.
When the large-scale war started, this woman decided that it would be safer for her and her children to move to a village.
But soon, Russians occupied the village they moved to and the mother and the kids went to live in the basement -- there was no food, water or electricity.
They managed a day and then when they emerged in the open, they begged the Russian troops to allow them to leave.
She had a car, she just needed permission to be able to drive away with her kids.
They said OK and even waved to her, wishing her luck. Other women also took this opportunity to take their children and leave in their cars.
As the cars started, the troops opened fire. The woman said that among those killed people was her 13-year-old-boy, Yeliseyev.
The Russians initially didn't allow her or the survivors to take the bodies of the dead but later when they returned her son's body, they refused to allow her to bury him in a cemetery.
'They told me to dig the grave of my son with my hands and bury him in my garden', she told my colleague.
She said her son was simply reduced to a body wearing a red hat and the white T-shirt stained in blood that he was shot in.
I don't know if you are aware, but all children wear a white T-shirt under their jacket to show that they are civilians, so that the troops won't kill them on sight. But it didn't help.
What is a regular day for Ukrainians since the large-scale war began in 2022?
Normal life, as we knew it, ended. Going to work, meeting friends at a cafe, hugging your loved ones, having family dinners, all this has disappeared.
To live during this large-scale war means to live in constant uncertainty and fear.
You cannot plan your day, not even the next few hours, because you may not be alive, your loved ones, even if not in the army, will be taken out by a Russian missile.
A family we had spoken to for documentation moved to the deep interiors of Ukraine because they wanted to save their daughter.
But Russians hit that city as well, and their four-year-old daughter Lisa died. Russian rockets will find you, there is no safe place.
But you know what? While I would never wish for anyone to go through what we are, it has brought out the best in us by making each one of us a better version of ourselves.
Being courageous, fighting for freedom, making difficult but right choices, taking the burden of responsibility to help each other...
I know hundreds and hundreds of examples where Ukrainians are risking their lives for complete strangers and it is only in moments like this that we truly understand what it means to be human.
I want to forget the horror of this war and when it ends I hope to remember the crucial things for which people have to live and fight for which are not limited to national borders. They are freedom and human solidarity.
You live in Kyiv. Do you also feel unsafe, insecure all the time?
I have no idea how my personal story will end, but I'm totally sure that freedom will prevail.
Putin wants to return us to the past when we were a part of Russian empire with no rights to speak the Ukrainian language, forced to bring up our children as Russians.
We will never return to the past and the future will come. It's inevitable.
Once the war is over, how will Ukraine embark on the mammoth task of rebuilding? Do you hope for a Marshall Plan?
We don't have the luxury to postpone the rebuilding process to the post-war period because we have no idea whether we are at the end of the war, or in the middle, or at the beginning of the war.
It means that we have to begin working despite the bombing, to restore our economy, to restore human presence, to not be dependent on international assistance.
We have to rely on ourselves and it's the responsibility of my generation to do so.
We will always live in constant danger of Russia so now for instance, when we rebuild our houses or schools, we include bomb shelters.
Is there a message you want to send out?
In school, I was inspired by the example of Mahatma Gandhi and his fight for freedom and justice.
He was an example for me that when you have no other instruments to fight suppression, you always have your own words and your own position.
And these tools are not small. It is my generation in Ukraine that is now fighting against Russian suppression and though India and Ukraine maybe geographically far from each other, we share the same values.
Prime Minister Modi has been invited to Russia on May 9 for the V-Day Parade. What is the message Ukraine wants Mr Modi to give Putin?
The prime minister of India once told Putin that today's era is not an era of war. I think it's worth repeating this message.
The times when the Russian empire invaded the territory of another independent State to occupy their territory, kill and rob people, erase their identity, and kidnap their children should be left in the past.
The time of colonialism is over. India knows by its own example what it is like to fight for freedom and independence. Putin should hear this from the prime minister of India.
Can India really get Putin to end the war?
I live in Kyiv, a city far from the front line. But almost every day, we are bombarded by Russian missiles.
They hit residential buildings, hospitals, and schools. This is a kind of terror against civilians that Russia uses to break the resistance of Ukrainians.
One missile can cost 13 million dollars. Russia can produce these missiles because it still has money.
If India reduces its oil imports from Russia, Putin will have less money to make or buy these missiles.
Russia has been a historical ally to India, but do you think it a dangerous and undependable ally?
There is a big difference between India's historical ties with Russia and India's historical ties with the Soviet Union.
You must remember that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union but we simply don't remember and know much about the numerous examples of cooperation between Ukrainians and Indians in various fields during those times.
It is the right of every country to determine its allies independently. But it is difficult to consider a leader of a State who constantly lies as an ally.
IMAGE: Oleksandra Matviichuk.
Photograph: Kind courtesy Oleksandra Matviichuk
This is a leader who claimed there were no Russian troops in Crimea in February 2014 (Russia has occupied Crimea) and that he was not preparing a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
Putin did all these illegal things, kidnapped 20,000 Ukrainian children, separated them from their families, and transported them to Russia. That's why the International Criminal court issued an arrest warrant against Putin.
I believe that in addition to political expediency, there must be moral norms.
There have been several reports that Putin is unwell. If Putin ceases to lead Russia and is replaced by another leader, will the situation change for Ukraine?
The problem is not only in Putin. The problem is with Russia and that Russia is an empire.
An empire has a centre but no borders. An empire always seeks to expand and seize new territories. And people in Russia have this imperial mindset, it is part of Russian culture.
They sincerely believe that they have a right to start aggressive wars, to destroy other countries, to kill and rape people, and to persecute them for their identity.
Because Russia has never been punished for the horrible crimes they committed in Chechnya, in Syria, in Libya, and in other countries of the world. Unpunished evil can only grow.
Photographs curated by Manisha Kotian/Rediff
Feature Presentation: Rajesh Alva/Rediff
© 2025