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Achyut Yagnik is honorary secretary of the Centre for Social Knowledge and Action, an Ahmedabad-based non-governmental organisation working for vulnerable communities in western India.

He has published several books in Gujarati and has, with sociologist Ashis Nandy and others, co-authored Creating a Nationality: Ramjanmabhoomi Movement and Fear of the Self. He is currently engaged on a book on the history of Gujarat.

Yagnik, who met Senior Editor Sheela Bhatt in Ahmedabad, says there is no Hindutva wave in the state.

What is the ground reality in Gujarat?

Except in central Gujarat and some part of north Gujarat, I don't find any Hindutva upsurge. In Saurashtra and Kutch, people are not talking about Hindutva. Of course, in urban areas you will find people talking about it. In Surat, the second largest city in Gujarat, you will find many people talking anti-Muslim.

Maybe there are some sentiments. But it's not a Hindutva wave. I am making a distinction between anti-Muslim feelings and a Hindutva upsurge.

I call it the Surat syndrome. People say in Surat somehow they ‘managed' the Vishwa Hindu Parishad. No one knows if it is true or not. In 1992, Surat was worse than Ahmedabad. Why did nothing happen in Surat this time?

You can divide Gujarat into two zones -- one is the area of violence and another is the area of peace. Kutch and Saurashtra largely were peaceful. Those areas remained peaceful for socio-cultural reasons. There, the communities are more rooted because they had a feudal culture and were not directly under the British rule. In the past, Muslims were dependents of upper caste Rajputs in Saurashtra. They still would like to protect them.

South Gujarat remained peaceful for economic reasons. A boy from the pastor community in north Gujarat told me, ‘The riots were the result of some conflict between Patels and Muslims.' He didn't say Hindus and Muslims. Dalits are  afraid of Patels in many areas. At a community level, people identify these issues.

The Sangh Parivar wants a monolithic Hindu structure. In the middle class, you will find it. But at a grass-root level you won't find such one fixed Hindutva identity.

Is there a wave in the BJP's favour?

I don't find any wave.

Can it come up at the last moment?

I don't deny the RSS-VHP-BJP network is powerful. That kind of cadre does not exist in the Congress, but I don't see any wave.

At the ground level, issues are of a different order. Water and power scarcity and rising prices are the issues. You find  relief work going on in Rajasthan but relief work has not started in the same area on this side of the border. Only in  urban areas has the drinking water problem been solved somewhat, not in the villages.

How do you assess Chief Minister Narendra Modi?

Modi is not a BJP leader. Modi is a VHP leader. It's not a BJP government. It's a government who believes in VHP views. The VHP is popular, so Modi is popular.

Under Modi's guidance, the VHP has grown in Gujarat. At that time, he was general secretary of the state BJP. Modi is popular mainly in those areas where the riots took place. His gaurav yatras are the result of good management. At most places, people were brought from outside.

How do you look at his bid to win the title 'Chote Sardar'?

Nehru had an appeal. Indulal Yagnik had a parallel appeal during the Maha-Gujarat movement. This [Modi's] is a stage-managed appeal. What's his message? He is talking about Hindutva and the pride of Gujarat. Hindutva is geographically limited. Common people are worried about their day-to-day problems and not talking about Gujarat's pride.

Why is the secular space shrinking in Gujarat?

There is no Left tradition or the dalit movement here like in Maharashtra or the tribal movement like in Jharkhand. After the Nav Nirman movement of 1974, Gujarat has not seen any people's movement. Anti-reservation was the negative movement. It was the ghettoisation of the mind. People were fighting against their own people.

Every seventh Gujarati is a tribal but there is no movement for their rights. We have a vocal and powerful middle-class, which is attracted to the VHP and BJP.

How important is this election?

You may find it paradoxical but this is the first and last Hindutva election. It will be the first election of its kind if they win. From the national point of view it will be the last election on the Hindutva issue if they lose Gujarat. They are not talking of hunger, insecurity and corruption anymore.

How do you see the BJP plank of 'Modi versus Musharraf'?

They are equating Hindutva with Hindu nationalism, which is perceived only in the context of Pakistan, the creation of Pakistan and present relations with Pakistan. It's important to note the VHP's slogans for this election. Dr [Pravin] Togadia has said the saffron flag will be unfurled today in Gandhinagar, tomorrow in New Delhi and then in Islamabad.

This is dangerous. He is not talking about the tricolour, he is talking about the saffron flag -- bhagva jhanda. To arouse Hindu feelings, they are talking about the greater undivided India of yesteryear. They may not stop with Islamabad. They may talk about Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. They are equating local Muslims with Islam and Islam with Pakistan. And that since Pakistan is an Islamic state, it's a danger to India.

There is another aspect to it. The BJP wants votes on the Hindutva issue, meaning anti-Muslim votes. They want votes as Gujaratis. That's why the issue of pride of Gujarat. They are dubbing the English press anti-Gujarat to strengthen their plank. Even Advani is talking in the same language.

They are dubbing opponents as anti-national by talking about Kashmir, Musharraf and terrorism. The BJP in Gujarat wants anti-nationalist votes, Hindu votes and Gujarati votes. Their spectrum is wide.

How is the management of the BJP at a social level?

It's very interesting. We Hindus are divided in caste and communities and we never perceive ourselves as Hindus. As a Hindu I have multiple identities. To create a staunch Hindu identity, the BJP has to create 'others' in society.

You have to construct Muslims versus Hindus. Because, such natural -- or I should say, organic -- options are absent in Hinduism. They have created these unnatural identities of They vs Us.

Of course, I say my religion is Hindu but I have multiple identities. I am also a Gujarati. I am also a brahmin and in a certain context, I would say I am from western India. In some circumstances I would say I am from the Third World. I am not just a Hindu. Religion and identity both are dynamic.

We two are Gujaratis but you are closer to Mumbai. We are vastly different. We can't be bracketed as merely Hindus.

My religion is also complex. I am a Shaivaite by birth. I have multiple identities, fluid and dynamic unlike what the VHP propagates. No one has a fixed Hindu identity. My maternal side are Swaminarayans. Am I a Shaivaite or Shakta or a Vaishanvite?

What are the new trends this election is expected to set?

This election is the most important one before the next parliamentary election. The BJP is the ruling party and they would repeat their experiments in other states if they are successful in Gujarat.

Do you think the Congress is taking the BJP head on?

I think the Congress is not proactive. It heavily depends on negative votes and the anti-incumbency factor. I think they are daydreaming. I don't find them active enough at the grass-root level. Whether it's the issue of water or electricity or drought relief or the bank scams or the earthquake relief issue, I don't find them proactive. The Congress is not a cadre-based party. It is merely a big election-fighting machine. Without elections, this machine hardly functions.

In Gujarat, it's the Opposition party. It is their fundamental duty to function as the Opposition. They don't provide an alternative. They are not talking about issues or about landless labourers or the tribal people's recent problem of evacuation from forest land.

Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee is not well accepted by BJP cadres in Gujarat. Do you agree with this view?

There is a vocal section in the Gujarati middle-class who hardly identifies with Vajpayee. Don't forget Vajpayee left his seat in Gujarat in favour of Lucknow. These days you find more and more young people amongst voters. For them, Vajpayee is the past. Now they are looking at the younger generation of the party.

Do you think the Togadia–Modi combine is the future of Gujarat?

I don't see a Hindu upsurge, so I don't think so. People may speak anti-Muslim, but it doesn't mean he or she would vote for the BJP.

In the Nazi era some people were heard saying, 'I am against a Jew but my best friend is a Jew.' This is because it's not always just We and They. There are We, Themselves and Myself. People in the neighbourhood may talk anti-Muslim or congratulate Modi, but they would still worry about their Muslim partner or a tenant. I vouch on this emotion. After the riots, the VHP's biggest message was the economic boycott of the Muslims. It was totally unsuccessful.

Is the VHP indispensable for the BJP in the Gujarat election?

Of course. As far as the government is concerned there is nothing but failure. They have nothing to offer. In Gujarat, you find the Congressisation of the BJP and the BJPisation of the Congress. This is the election where the entire nation is involved. I find people in Kolkata or Delhi more nervous than the people in Gujarat.

EARLIER INTERVIEW WITH ACHYUT YAGNIK:
'Gujarat is not safe in the hand of Narendra Modi'