The Rediff Interview/Era Sezhiyan

'We differed with the Congress and started the Janata Dal. We became worse than the Congress'

Is it not ironical that Ramakrishna Hegde, who was also instrumental in creating the Janata Dal, got thrown out of the party?

(laughs) All these things are symptoms of a deeper malaise because we did not ensure the organisation was set up in a democratic manner. Adhocism gives limitless power to get nominations. At the same time it also gives limitless power for removal.

Were you surprised by his ouster or did you expect something of this sort to happen?

No, I did not expect it. I was shocked. This happened on the thirteenth of June. On the same evening, somebody called me and asked me about this. Immediately, I contacted Delhi. They said, they had no other option. I asked, what is the charge? There should be some basis to expel him. They said, we do not know, sir. The letter was given to the president and he has passed the orders and we have given it to the press.

Did you talk to Laloo Prasad Yadav or any other leader?

No, I did not talk to any of them. My first reaction was, it was unfortunate and I don't accept it. Since it was an inner party matter, I tried to set it right within the party forum. I didn't want to comment on the party president and the leaders. Party discipline and my commitment to the party made me issue a mild statement.

Did you talk to Hegde about all this?

I contacted him only later. I know so much about these disciplinary committees because I was the first chairman of such a committee set up by the Janata Party in 1978. I codified the rules and regulations then. One of the rules was specific: Irrespective of who takes action, there is one clause which says any action can be taken only after issuing a show cause notice. You can't take that clause away. You should give a chance to the other man to explain. Here nothing was done. They just gave it to the press and said, that man is out!

I met him on the 20th or so. I asked him why he made such caustic remarks in public. I told him he should have been a bit more restrained. When I was taking it up as a political issue, he took it as a personal issue. I told him not to do that. He said what they did was wrong and I should tell the workers. But where is the forum for us to say all that?

Is the ego clash between Deve Gowda and Hegde a reason for Hegde's expulsion?

Definitely, definitely. Personality clash is there. It will be there in every party. But we should not take it to the personal level. I am not pro-Hegde or anything like that. I would have protested if Hegde had done this to somebody else. It is not who is involved that matters, but what is involved.

Now that you are out of the party and Hegde is going to launch a new party in October, will you support him and join his party?

I do not know what the party is doing to stand for. If it is going to lead to another highly centralised one.... and what is the guarantee that Hegde will not take an action like this against somebody else? So I will not commit myself. I told him that.

We differed with the Congress and started this party. We became worse than the Congress. What is the guarantee that another party will be better?

You sound dissatisfied with the present political system.

This is happening in every party. Personal interests dominate. The welfare of the country and the party's credibility are forgotten. I have been saying this for a long time. It is better to leave the party when it is in power.

In the statement issued after your resignation, you said leaders resort to unfair means to achieve personal gain. Will you elaborate on that?

You see the personal touch everywhere. We organise a party with a view to win elections. Not for the benefit of the workers, but for yourself. When the party comes to power, you want to be in power. There is a rush for office. Personal gain means not only grabbing money but being in authority, to be in places dispensing (favours), to be a powerful man.The levels may vary. There is no exception.

One thing has spoiled the entire party. We had a very good organisational level in many states. But because of the incessant quarrels at the Centre between the leaders, the entire network is spoilt. I lost faith in strengthening the party at the lower levels. Unless you clean from the top to the bottom, it is very difficult to make it clean. The Delhi leadership is more to blame.

How can I go and tell people that we are wedded to democracy when I do not practice democracy in my party? How can I criticise other parties? There is no forum or avenue available for the worker to vent his feelings. There is no interaction between the leadership and workers within the party.

Is Hegde's expulsion a reason for your resignation?

That is not the main reason. Hegde's expulsion is one more thing added to the long list. That is only a symptom, not the basic problem. The basic problem is centralised authority.

All authority went to the Centre in the hands of one man. And the one man, one post was given up. This man was the minister, chief minister as well as the party president. All these things are against the accepted guidelines on which the party was evolved.

When V P Singh became prime minister, he had the good sense to resign the party president's post. It did not work, and it will not work in future also.