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Cronje's June 22 testimony

You see, that's what I'm trying to get to. If this was in fact 100% - and what I'm trying to get to here as well, Mr Commissioner, is what is difficult to put across in an affidavit like this and a handwritten statement in seven pages at 3 o'clock in the morning, after you've had four days to sleep about it, is that in fact 95% of what is on these transcripts was misleading somebody and it's been recorded. How on earth do you want me to put this to you so that it makes sense to you?

COMMISSIONER: I think, Mr Cronjé, Mr Wallace has already indicated that he does not have an objection to Ms Batohi questioning you on the transcript. You say 95% of it, if I understand it, is correct.

MR CRONJE: 95% was misleading Sanjay, where I said to him that players were in fact involved when they weren't. That's what I said to you. And what I'm also trying to get to you, Mr Commissioner, is that what the Indian Police and what Interpol are saying is that none of the South African players phones were bugged. None of the South African rooms were bugged. But now yesterday we get shoved a piece of paper that says a call that I had made from India to Sharjah and speaking in a foreign language. Is that not an invasion of privacy, Mr Commissioner?

COMMISSIONER: Mr Cronjé, I'm not going to go into that, it's really not part of my brief. But you - I understand from what you said a moment ago - you said 95% of what is on this tape is when you were playing with Sanjay, you were misleading him. Now I assume from that answer that you accept that what is on the tape, whatever your purpose was, is correct.

MR WALLACE: I'm sorry, Mr Commissioner, but with respect that is not my recollection of what Mr Cronjé said, or those of my colleagues. I certainly heard him to say that 95% of what he said to Sanjay, not 95% of what he said 'on these tapes', or these transcripts. With respect, there is a difference, and ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: I think I was very clear in my understanding, Mr Cronjé, that you had this document in your hand, this transcript, and that's what you were talking about. Was I wrong? Now that Mr Wallace has ...(intervention)

MR CRONJE: Correct.

COMMISSIONER: ...sought to correct me. Was I wrong in saying that when you talked about 95% of what you said to Sanjay, you were referring to what was in this transcript?

MR CRONJE: I have not had time to go through the whole transcript, Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Have you never been taken through that transcript or had an opportunity to read it?

MR CRONJE: The only time I had an opportunity to read this was when it was given to me by Mr Green and by Mrs Wilkinson-Luck.

COMMISSIONER: Well, then you've had ample opportunity to read it. I'm not going to indulge in a debate with you. Do I understand, Mr Wallace, that you have no objection to Ms Batohi continuing her cross-examination on inter alia these transcripts, and then you will take counsel with - or Mr Cronjé will take counsel with you and you will decide on your position at a later stage. Am I correct in that?

MR WALLACE: Yes, that is correct, Mr Commissioner, subject obviously to the questions which have already been placed on record as to what exactly these are transcripts of, and those sort of things. But I await the questions as far as that is concerned.

COMMISSIONER: I'm not quite sure that I follow you, but anyway, carry on Ms Batohi.

MR WALLACE: Well, can I make it clear then, Mr Commissioner. These have been presented as transcripts. We do not have the tapes, we understand the Commission does not have the tapes, the Department of Foreign Affairs does not have the tapes and access to those tapes is being denied. We are not therefore in a position to ascertain whether those tapes even exist, whether these transcripts are accurate or the purported transcripts are accurate, whether they are extracts from bits and pieces of conversations, when they were taken, how they were taken, or anything else. On the face of it, they purport to be transcripts of private phone conversations, which as Mr Cronjé has said, and obviously his interjection without my prompting indicates his anxiety in these matters, which have been taken, certainly as we would understand the law and the law in this country, unlawfully contrary to his constitutional rights, his rights of privacy, and all the rest of it. We have no basis for knowing what they are, testing them or anything else. So if my learned friend questions Mr Cronjé, and says, 'Look, here's a passage. Do you recall a conversation like that?', that's legitimate. But I will certainly object to any questions which are posed on the basis that these are genuine transcripts of genuine conversations until somebody has actually given some evidence to that effect. That's what I'm saying.

COMMISSIONER: I hear what you say. We may have to wait a long time before we get that evidence, but in any event, we'll allow Ms Batohi to continue with her cross-examination.

MS BATOHI: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. Mr Cronjé I understand your concerns, and that is my concern as well and we've been trying very, very hard to get the original transcripts, which would have saved us these problems. And I'm not for one minute basing my questions on the assumption that these are accurate. I would hope that you would be able to assist me in that regard, and then we can go from there. If you look at - well, what I've handed to your counsel now and which has caused some concern, is - you have a copy of that. It's - if you look at page 1. It says: "Sanjay: Hello? Hansie: Hello. Sanjay: Hello. Hi, Hansie. Hansie: Hello. Hi, Sanjay. Sanjay then says: "Yeah, I'm in the lobby at the moment. Is it possible I can drop in for a few minutes?" You then reply: "Were are you? In the lobby?" He says: "Yeah." You then state: "You can come in." Sanjay: "I can come in?" You state: "Yeah, I'm in 346." Sanjay says: "Alright, no more. Okay goodbye, see you in two minutes." You reply: "Yeah, okay." I'll just stop there for a moment. Now, did that happen?

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