'I'm Really Proud To Be A Brahmin'

'So my question was, 'What is it that you are proud of? What have you achieved? What is your contribution?'
'He had no answer.'

Shazia Iqbal is a trained architect, who started her film career as a production designer in many of Anurag Kashyap's films.

In 2019, she made a short film called Bebaak, a part-autobiographical story of a young Muslim girl. The film traveled to many international film festivals.

Iqbal recently directed Dhadak 2, the Hindi remake of the award winning Tamil classic Pariyerum Perumal, directed by Mari Selvaraj and produced by Pa Ranjith.

Dhadak 2 is one of the rare Hindi films focusing on caste discrimination. The powerful, searing drama is produced by Karan Johar and stars Siddhant Chaturvedi and Triptii Dimri. It recently opened to positive reviews, and enthusiastic support from the Dalit and other OBC caste communities.

It also got the endorsement of Gujarat MLA Jignesh Mevani who spoke at the screening that the film should get a tax-free status.

This week Iqbal and her co-writer Rahul Badwelkar visited Delhi where Aseem Chhabra spoke to them about the making of the film.

Shazia, I am wondering about your awareness of caste issues. You grew up in Mumbai in a Muslim household. People know there is caste system in India and caste discrimination...

Shazia: But they don't know how it's practiced when they are on the other side.

Very early on, I wondered whether I was the right person to make this film. I believe that I would be a better person to make Bebaak than somebody else who has not lived that life.

But you can still navigate from the point of your limited knowledge, to reaching a point where you operate with empathy and compassion and are able to tell that story.

And since you are adapting, there is already an inner voice at play, right?

Did they give you the script of Pariyerum Perumal?

Shazia: No. We watched the film but didn't just go with the subtitles.

We had a Tamil-speaking person with us and he gave us the cultural context of the scenes.

We didn't want to keep each and every detail because our setting was different, but we needed to understand the source.

See, Shyam Benegal made Ankur. You can find your way through research, conversations, and doing your homework. You can reach the base.

But if you ask me politically, what is right?

Should there be more Dalit filmmakers telling their own stories? I feel, yes.

Should there be more Muslim filmmakers telling their own stories? Yes, that is the ideal situation.

There are Muslim filmmakers, although they are not necessarily making Muslim-themed films. But Neeraj Ghaywan recently told me he is the only Dalit filmmaker working in Hindi cinema, who is open about his caste.
A filmmaker friend of mine wanted to cast a Dalit actress, and I asked Neeraj and he said, nobody will acknowledge that they are Dalit.

Shazia: Even we don't know. There were some OBC actors in our film, but not Dalits.

But then, films are not just made by writers and directors. There were people from the Dalit Bahujan community in our crew. It's not that we are very far removed from reality, that we didn't know how to go about telling the story.

Also, our script consultant Mrudul Nile is from the community.

You don't say the film is set in Bhopal because of the censor board directive. But I recognised Bhopal because of the lake. Why did you set it in Bhopal?

Shazia: We wanted it to be in a Hindi heartland, and Rahul grew up in Bhopal.

One of the reasons I wanted Rahul on board was because I was raised around Mumbai. Rahul could bring the authenticity in the dialogues, to have the dialect correct.

And you both knew each other?

Shazia: When I did production design for Sacred Games, he was an associate with Anurag. Then we worked on a few other films directed by Anurag.

Shazia, I read in an interview that while preparing, you watched Stalin K's brilliant documentary India Untouched. That film is such eye opener to the caste complexities in India, looking at caste divides even among Christians, Muslims and Sikhs.

Shazia: That is a stunning documentary. In fact, anyone who joined the project, had to watch a list of documentaries, including Anand Patwardhan's Jai Bhim Comrade and Stalin's film.

We didn't want the references from any fiction film.

Fiction is generally the voice of the filmmaker.

We wanted people to watch documentaries and read books. Also, for research, we spoke to a lot of people in Bhim Nagar in Bhopal.

Rahul: We also went to law colleges and met a lot of students: Dalits, OBCs and also upper caste students.

We were surprised that many were against reservations and they said it should be based on economic reasons. They told us some members of the community have done economically well.

So the reservation policy should be updated.

Shazia: So it's a conversation. I know there are people who oppose reservations but feel they are not given the chance to understand the argument. It feels like merit-based, but merit-based will only work in an equal society.

That equality doesn't exist. That is what we tried to say through our character Shekhar.

Shekhar's character does not exist in Pariyerum Perumal. I understand he represents Rohith Vemula (the Dalit student who committed suicide in Hyderabad in 2016).
When you add a character like Rohith, how did you think it would be viewed by the censor board?

Shazia: We didn't want to get into self-censorship. Otherwise, there is no stopping yourself.

We knew this is a Hindi mainstream film and there are some things you can say, and some things you can't.

But when I was growing up, the films that mattered to me were those directed by Mani Ratnam, Saeed Mirza, or like Shyam Benegal's Mammo.

When I saw Mammo and its protagonist Rizwan, I thought his problems were just like mine.

When it came to making my own film, I wanted people to relate to it.

You mentioned Hindi mainstream cinema. How did you do the transition in the narrative, taking it from a small town and village in Tamil Nadu to a mid-level city in North India?

I will tell you of a particular incident. I spoke to a friend who's a director. Of course, I will not name him.

I was looking for a co-writer and asked him if he knew anyone from the Dalit community.

He asked what is caste?

He got offended, when I finally asked him which caste he belongs to.

I know generally, one shouldn't ask, but I was trying to get a sense.

His response was, 'I don't know. Is Brahmin a caste?'

I was shocked.

He's an educated, nice guy, but he is so privileged that he doesn't even need to know what his caste is.

I talked to others as well and realised that in urban areas, the upper caste people are so privileged that they claim not to know their caste.

When Rahul joined the project, we decided to set the film in a city and to discuss this issue. Because if we adapt the film exactly like Mari had made, then how will the story progress?

Hindi mainstream films are made with a certain grammar.

We thought we should pose a question to the audience, if this happens in cities also? Because caste discrimination happens in cities, except it's often invisible. In rural areas, it is much more visible.

There are people who have said that we have moved the film to a city because it is a Dharma Production. But that is not the case.

Rahul: The worst thing is when people say I don't believe in caste.

I am not discriminating anyone.

That's such a problematic statement.

A friend who knew I was working on this film, said, 'I am a Brahmin, but I don't discriminate. Why should I be ashamed?'

Then, he added, 'I am really proud to be a Brahmin.'

So my question was, 'What is it that you are proud of? What have you achieved? What is your contribution?'

He had no answer.

I was also interested in the tropes of mainstream cinema. What thoughts went into that?

Shazia: Early on in conversations with Karan, he was certain that we would not shy away from talking about identity issues. But it was clear also that we will have songs, at least four.

The Tamil film also had songs.

Shazia: When Rang De Basanti, Lagaan and Swades were made, the songs helped to move forward the story.

We tried to do that also.

I understand the power of mainstream cinema, where it reaches a larger audience. The kind of response that we have been getting for last four-five days, it rattles you, it shakes you. So we know adding songs is not a big loss, as long we are getting to say a lot.

You have romance in the film and the protagonists kiss. They also talk about it.

Shazia: We wanted to bring a change by expanding Vidhi's (the character played by Triptii Dimri) story line.

In Mari's film, the Jo character is really not involved and is quite ignorant about what is happening around her.

Rahul: To keep Vidhi involved in Neelesh's (the character played by Siddhant Chaturvedi) life, we had to enhance the love story.

Through Neelesh, she becomes more informed when she becomes part of his journey.

Some people have said that we added the love elements because it is a Dharma film. But that's not correct.

We wanted Vidhi's character to have a proper coming-of-age arc.

Shazia: That kissing scene was not sexual. It was an emotional bonding scene.

He talks about his dog's death and she is talking about her mother's death. That is how they bond.

People pick on Dharma films and Karan Johar is often an easy target. But had it not been for him, your film and Neeraj Ghaywan's Homebound would not have been made.
There have been so few films that deal with caste and Dalit issues, except in Tamil cinema. Neeraj made Masaan 10 years ago.
After that very few films like Gurvinder Singh's Anhey Gorhey Da Daan (in Punjabi), Anubhav Sinha's Article 15 were made. Nagraj Manjule's Fandry and Sairat are both in Marathi. But caste is hardly discussed.

Shazia: Someone had posted a video reel from a screening in Banares, and someone said in the back 'Kitna caste dal diya hai'.

A friend told me that even though Sairat made Rs 100 crore (Rs 1 billion), a lot of people walked out of the screenings at mid-point.

But in Sairat, Nagraj did something clever. After making Fandry, a hard-hitting film, he made a commercial film with songs.

Shazia: That is what drew the audience. But when they went to the theatre, they realised the film deals with deeper issues.

Tell me about the working with Triptii on the screen. Her scream in the end comes as a shock. But what a performance!

Shazia: When we were shooting, we had written Neelesh's monologue.

A monologue is a very Bollywood trope but we wanted that. We felt that this was a behron ka desh and so something had to be said loudly, in a strong voice.

Then we thought now that Triptii has the information about her family, what will she do with it?

She loved her father but whatever she had said at that moment would be so immaterial.

We gave her lines but Rahul noticed on the monitor that she was hyperventilating. So he suggested what if she screams.

This was not in the script but you should always allow some magic to happen on the set.

I took Triptii aside and said when the tussle is happening between the father and his brother, just scream since you are already breathing heavily.

Acting is so much of reacting, listening to your co-actor, so it's just a scream and see what happens.

And in the moment, she screamed and she went on. It was not a brief scream.

We shot it two or three times, but the first time she did it, everyone on the set became quiet. We knew we had captured it.

How was she once you called out cut?

Shazia: I didn't ask for cut. I couldn't ask her to stop because it was the actor's moment.

But when the camera shut down, how was she as an actor?

Shazia: She was shivering. She had tears in her eyes.

Rahul: You cannot give fake emotions in a moment like that. She was really shaken. I remember Shazia gave her a hug.

Photographs curated by Satish Bodas/Rediff