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Cronje's June 21 testimony

Good afternoon, all -- deposed South African captain Hansie Cronje is due to take the stand, for cross-examination, in just a few minutes from now.

We will, as on the day of the Cronje testimony, update you with details of the cross-examination in real time, and have the full audio replay up immediately thereafter. Keep refreshing this page every few minutes for the latest updates.

At this point, the main players -- Judge King, Hansie Cronje, and the various lawyers -- have not yet arrived at the venue. We are, thus, in wait mode.

Meanwhile, our partner in South Africa, Live Africa News Network, won a significant victory in court this morning, when the judges ruled that Judge Edwin King was unconstitutional when he denied permission for the commission proceedings to be telecast live.

The courts ruled that radio is the main source of news for most South africans and to deny live radio broadcasts over the LANN network was contrary to the constitutional rights of South African citizens.

Thanks to the ruling, LANN will now be broadcasting on its network, live, the proceedings of the King Commission. We will be receiving the feed, and putting up the entire audio feed immediately after the proceedings end.

Meanwhile, through this link, we will keep providing updated text commentary of the cross, as it happens.

Okay, here we go -- the court is now in session, with Judge King in his chair and Cronje readying to take the witness stand for his cross. Present in court is, interestingly, Hamid 'Banjo' Cassim, who according to Cronje's testimony was one of the main links in the bookie web.

Most of the South African players, and senior administrators, are also present in the commission courtroom. Uh oh, this has all the makings of a stall. A doctor testifying on behalf of Hansie Cronje is now on the stand. The doctor says he was first consulted on June 13. That he has examined Cronje. That the former South African captain is showing signs of mental stress.

In response to a question, the doctor says Hansie Cronje is suffering from severe depression. The doctor lists 9 symptoms, including loss of appetite, insomnia, headaches, extreme agitation and an overwhelming feeling of worthlessness.

Loss of concentration, restlessness and low self-esteem are the other symptoms being listed

But where is all this headed? our take is that the lawyers are attempting, one, to buy time and two, to try and ensure that the hearings, or at least the cross examination, is not aired live, claiming that the presence of live microphones is adding to his stress levels.

If the claim is in fact made, though, it would be ridiculous. The courtroom bristles with microphones -- one more itsy bitsy mike is not even noticeable, let alone creating a stress situation.

A lawyer points out that these are ordinary symptoms, that people have in day to day life. What, he asks, makes it clinical depression?

The doctor says that one or two of the above symptoms is ordinary, it is all a question of scale. If you have 7-8 of the symptoms of depression, as Cronje has now, it is clinical.

Dr Jordan says he has prescribed medication for Cronje, and that in his opinion, Cronje is at this point in time incapable of testifying.

Dr Jordan says, further, that the symptoms, in concert with the medication Cronje is taking, will affect his concentration and possibly even his memory.

For now, the doctor is elaborating on the various symptoms, and detailing how, in his opinion, these symptoms have made Cronje incapable at this point in time of giving testimony

Have you, asks the lawyer, seen any improvement in his health since your treatment began? Can you elaborate on the degree of stress?

Dr Jordan, responding to the questions being asked by Hansie's own lawyer, says that the stress levels are much higher than those faced by ordinary human beings, that it has reached overwhelming proportions.

Dr Jordan, in response to a question about how this could affect Cronje's performance on the witness stand, says that one fallout of his mental state is that people in this state of significant stress tend to revert to a primitive way of thinking and reacting. "He could see some questions as threatening, even when they are not," says Dr Jordan.

Will a postponement of his cross examination be beneficial? Yes, says Dr Jordan, it will be beneficial to ensure that he gets proper treatment before he takes the stand for cross.

How much time will proper treatment take, the lawyer wants to know. At least six weeks before he is in a position to testify fully, says the doctor.

In his present state, is Cronje incapable of testifying? Not incapable, says the doctor, but his memory is definitely effected, and that could affect his responses and thus, the inquiry itself.

The lawyers are now conferring among themselves. This has the makings of beautiful stage-management -- between them, Cronje's lawyer and doctor have created a situation where it will not be possible for him to be crossed for a considerable time to come. If the judge over-rules the doctor and insists on Cronje answering questions now, he can say anything he likes, or even claim he can't remember, and the doctor and lawyer can then say this is because of his depression.

Here we go, into the second act, with another doctor being called to testify to Cronje's condition. Can he testify, the doctor is asked. "He will find it difficult to deal with questions that affect his credibility," is the response.

The second doctor tells the deputy public prosecutor, Shamila Batohi, that if they insist on crossing Cronje today itself, it might be easier if the questions are non-aggressive, if they are broken down into smaller bits, and if they are phrased in a non-threatening manner.

He might get affected by aggressive questions, the doctor says. Aggressive in what way, in manner or content of the questions, the doctor is asked. Aggressive, in the sense of questions that are accusing in tone and tenor and wording, and which seem to him to attack his credibility, is the doctors response.

Batohi wants to know whether this will effect the commission, since Cronje will necessarily have to face tough questions. "Treat him with dignity," says the doctor, "I am worried that he may get defensive at the manner of questioning, and this might be misperceived in various ways."

Let's try summing up what we have heard so far. The doctors are saying Cronje is stressed. That he has memory problems. That he can't be asked hard questions. That he can't be asked questions that appear to threaten his credibility. Ouch -- what else is there left for the commission to do, or ask?

A lot of words being strewn around by the doctors just now. "With Mr Cronje, right from the start, I had a sense he was suffering from depression. The symptoms are not present all together, at the same time. But with Mr Cronje, they are all there, more times than not."

In reply to a question by additional public prosecutor, the doctor says Cronje might get frustrated at times, during the cross, especially if he forgets an incident he is asked about, if his memory deserts him, as it could do at times.

How can you be so sure he won't remember things, how can you be sure the memory lapses are genuine, Batohi asks. "Sometimes it will happen," says the doctor, "he even forgets what he is wearing."

He will perform adequately, says the doctor, but will definitely not be at his best if crossed at this point in time. "The proceedings require him to use his memory well," points out Batohi, and asks if the offer of amnesty will relieve some stress? "Yes, a bit," says the doctor.

Can he manipulate this condition, could he be pretending, asks Batohi. "Anyone can manipulate a medical condition, but in Cronje's case, I don't think he is doing so," is the doctor's response.

He's been depressed for about 2 months? How much longer will he remain in this state, Batohi asks. "It depends on how well the medication takes effect," the doctor responds.

That last answer, "It depends on how well the medication takes effect" is a nice little stall -- what it really means is the doctors won't commit to a date, and further, that at any point, one month, two months, six months, one year down the line, they can still say recovery is slow and the medication is not taking effect as quickly as was hoped for.

The doctor says that if they go ahead with the cross now, they have to be very patient. "If you feel his response is not clear, ask him again, be very specific."

How will I assess his credibility, Batohi asks. Be careful not to misperceive his responses or actions, he will be able to answer questions adequately, unless he feels they are threatening.

The doctor says that if they go ahead with the cross now, they have to be very patient. "If you feel his response is not clear, ask him again, be very specific."

How does one distinguish between a memory lapse and a cover-up attempt, Batohi asks. "He will probably remember anything of significance, but may forget simple things, the finer details," is the doctor's response.

Batohi: "Do you expect him to remember all the instances where he has behaved dishonestly?" "I believe he will remember them, yes," says the doctor.

Prem Panicker: I'm not sure if it is fair for me to comment on judicial proceedings in another country, but increasingly, the feeling you get as you listen to this is that you are listening to a carefully orchestrated script, with the Cronje lawyers conducting a nice little symphony here.

The purpose would seem to be to tell the court, hey, guys, listen, we don't have problems if you put Cronje on the stand now, but do it at your own risk, knowing fully well that you can't rely on what he says because his memory is impaired and besides, if you ask him hard questions, he might panic and get worse.

Judge King now asks Cronje's lawyers if, in his statement, Cronje has told the whole truth, limited of course by the terms of reference.

Uh oh, here we go again, Judge King now wants everyone present to turn off their cellphones -- which are the means by which this hearing is being relayed to the outside world.

Prem Panicker:

That bit about the cellphones? No worries really, because we will be able to continue bringing you the feed, through our radiolink.

The session is now one hour and ten minutes old, and thus far, pretty much the same statements have been made, ad nauseum.

Cronje's lawyer now argues: Commissioner, your remarks create an impression that you are not completely convinced about Cronje's statement. You believe, judging by your remarks, that Cronje hasn't stated or told the whole truth. Your remarks leave an impression that you are not completely convinced by his testimony.

Please let us know, says Cronje's lawyer, what are the areas where you believe there are deficiencies in his testimony. We will speak to Hansie and give you more information on those matters.

Having said that, Cronje's lawyers now ask for an adjournment of 15 minutes.

The request has been granted, the hearings have been adjourned for 15 minutes.

Okay, lull in proceedings while all concerned take 15. Meanwhile, this whole session has been interesting, if not in terms of what we know about match-fixing, at least in giving us an insight into how good lawyers can function on behalf of their client.

Prem Panicker: Having first warned about how Cronje could react to questions that undermine his credibility, the lawyers promptly seized on Judge King's question about whether Cronje has been entirely honest.

Judge King, meanwhile, makes a quick statement about his earlier comment. Let me, says King, dispel any notions that I have pre-judged Mr Cronje. What troubles me is that I have to make a recommendation (of amnesty) to the Director of Public Prosecutions. I have to tell the Director of Public Prosecutions that I am satisfied Cronje has told the whole truth, King points out.

And with that, there is an adjournment of 15 minutes.

As per a request by Cronje's lawyers, the Cronje hearings have been adjourned by another hour. No proceedings are expected before 4.15 pm IST. We are shutting down for now, and will be back at that time.

Uh oh, here we go -- change in plans, the Judge King Commission has recommenced its hearing.

It's Cronje on the witness stand, and in response to the first question, he says: "My last assignment as captain of South Africa was on April 19, 2000."

Could you give us an idea of the amount of sponsorship you enjoyed since the start of your career?

Cronje: Bat sponsorship was the biggest, over four years the amount could be close to a quarter of a million rand. Shoes and accessories could have got me half a million rand through the course of my career.

Did you get advice or influence from anyone about sponsorships?

Cronje: Till 1995, I did it all myself. In 1995, I got professional help, I was referred to Mr Clifford Green. He took care of everything from then on.

How was he functioning?

Cronje: I was paying him a monthly sum, plus 15 per cent of my earnings.

How much did you pay Greene?

Cronje: After speaking to my auditors, I am told the amount was 600,000 rand.

That gives us an idea of the money that you made?

Cronje: You can multiply that by six, and you will get the amount.

What about the trusts that you were a beneficiary of?

Cronje: I set up the Hansie Cronje Trust in September 1995. I also have a 50 per cent share in the trust.

Was the trust entirely separate from your cricket?

Cronje: I have given my complete financial statements, I have given a complete list of my properties sold and bought to the commission.

Ever used any of the advantages of being a cricketer?

Cronje: I have studied B.Com myself, and yes, being a cricketer, I have access to the best newsapers and have help to make the best of decisions.

Do you also get money to speak at functions?

Cronje: Yes, I charge anything between Rand 500 to Rand 25,000 for every function.

What about the prize money?

Cronje: The prize money isn't really much, it is divided among the players as decided by the UCBSA.

You recently had a benefit year?

Cronje: It is a pension for the cricketer, it is the public's way of showing love for the cricketer, and yes, even I had it.

Give us round figures of the earnings you got that year?

Cronje: After deductions and commissions, Rand 1.4 million. Capital banks have the records for it.

There is talk that you have bought a luxury house at Francourt. Could you tell us where you got the funds from?

Cronje: I sold a house in Cape Town. Other savings were also there. Money from my benefit year also helped me buy it.

Cronje: The house is registered in the name of the Hansie and Bertha trust.

Prem Panicker: Hmmmm... thus far, the Commission seems to be easing Cronje into this one with some soft, outside off stump half-volleys which are being gratefully put away.

Cronje continues, elaborating on his finances: Since I am an international crickter, I haven't had a very high standard of living because I am travelling. That is how I have been able to save so much money. Being an international cricketer, friends are always ready to buy me drinks. The hotels in SA have also been very generous.

In summary, financially you have been very successful?

Cronje: I've been blessed while I played for SA and owe a lot to other people's hard work and generosity.

You have in front of you a copy of your statement?

Cronje: I do.

Page three of your testimony says that in January 1995, you were approached before the first one day game. How was the approach made?

Cronje: I was called on my cellphone by a man called John. Since we had come back from the ban, I was trying to be as open as I could be to the media, especially from the sub-continent. So I was open to talk. I went to his room and he had no dictaphone. I was intrigued. He said that he was not a journalist but a fixer.

How did you feel?

Cronje: I didn't know what to expect. But he said he was a matchfixer.

How did you know what a match-fixer is?

Cronje: I think a match fixer is someone who fixes matches. He gets the players from one team to play below par, he manipulates the result.

Had you been approached before that?

Cronje: That was the first time from a bookmaker.

What was your reaction?

Cronje: I should have said to him to get lost, or thrown him off the building. But I didn't do that. I said I'll think about it. Had I not done so, I would have saved myself a whole lot of trouble; I wouldn't be here in that case.

After you went back to your room, what did you do?

Cronje: I sort of, because I was young, I used to mix a lot with the players. I thought I would speak to a senior player. I met Symcox and I asked him.

Was Symcox the first, or you had no one else to ask?

Cronje: He came to my room, and I told him that we were offered 10,000 dollars. He should have said that he would throw me off the building, but he said that we had a great chance and we could win the game. He told me not to fix the game. I told John I wasn't interested.

How did you communicate with John again?

Cronje: I called him in his room and told him that his offer was not on.

Describe John?

Cronje: An Indian or Pakistani, dark hair, moustache, between 30-40, not too heavy, between 70-75 kgs.

How can you be sure he was from the sub-continent and not from South Africa?

Cronje: After several tours of the sub-continent, I can recognise how they talk.

On page three of your statement you said he might be the same man who approached Waugh and Warne. On what basis did you make that statement?

Cronje: It is just the similarity in names, there is nothing more to it than that. When we were playing our last match in 1994 in Faisalabad against Pakistan and the team was joking about throwing the game, I don't think the Waugh-Warne story had broken at the time.

You said this is the first time you were approached. Did you have any prior knowledge that this kind of thing happens?

Cronje: The only instance I can remember is the Rodney Marsh one in 1981. Warne-Waugh were the others. The only other recollection I have of that 1994 tour was that Kepler Wessels was sitting at the same table as Salim Malik, and he said that he heard that it was going on.

Do you have any personal or direct knowledge of fixing outside your team?

Cronje: No. Salim Malik, once asked me if John had spoken to me. I didn't want to share it with anyone. I don't know if Malik had anything to do with John. I never spoke to him ever again in my life.

On page 4 para 15, you say that you don't know when this guy Sunil approached you?

Cronje: Gibbs, the physio and me were together at the time, when this guy Sunil came and tried to make us feel at home. Sunil once asked me if I was interested in giving information. I will be incorrect if I say whether it was before or after para 16.

You say that on the third day of the Test match at Kanpur, you were approached.

Cronje: We got India out for a reasonable score. There was talk that Madan had made the pitch and we thought that if they make 220 we would win. We wanted to establish a lead. At the end of the third day, they were around 250-270.

Do you remember who was the overnight batsmen?

Cronje: I think Azhar and Dravid were at the crease.

You were called by Azhar, is that right?

Cronje: I made a mistake in that statement. It is normal in the subcontinent to invite friends to your rooms to meet friends.

You have friendly relations with Azhar?

Cronje: Yes.

He introduced you to Mukesh Gupta?

Cronje: Azhar said that Mukesh had said he wanted to talk to me. Azhar then left the room.

Cronje: Mukesh told me he was a diamond merchant, and that he was interested in selling diamonds to SA. He said that he wanted to get in touch with someone. I told him I knew someone from De Beers and that I would get them in touch.

What happened next?

Cronje: He said that in his opinion the match was in India's favour and that we would not be able to score 220. He said that we failed in the first Test, we failed to score more than 140-odd runs. He gave me the impression that he had put money on India.

What was your assessment of the game at that point?

Cronje: Had we got 300 in the game, we could have won.

What did he say in relation to match-fixing?

Cronje: He said that he had put money on India, and said that we should get out cheaply the second time. I said that I will take the money and see what I can do. I said that if I win the game, great, but if I lose the match then I will get the money at least.

What happened next?

Cronje: They got a substantial lead and we got out easily. I didn't fix any players or ask anyone.

Cronje: I got a high score. I didn't try to lose the game.

According to reports of that match, India declared at 400/7.

Cronje: Yeah, Indian pitches are such that you cannot score more than 250.

After taking the money, did you do anything consciously to lose or alter the game?

Cronje: No, I didn't do anything consciously, but it did make a difference to me sub-consciously, yes. I didn't tell any players. We went to Bombay to play the benefit game of Amarnath.

You said that there were three players who spoke out against the offer to throw the Amarnath game?

Cronje: There were a number of young players, Klusener, Boje, Adams... Kirsten didn't say much, he chose to keep quiet; McMillian, Symcox and Richardson spoke out.

Give us the atmosphere in which the negotation with Gupta was done?

Cronje: The mood was lighthearted and jocular, the players were relieved and we were joking. I told Gupta we had rejected the offer and that we were just looking as to how high it would go. He settled for 250,000 dollars. We were just looking at the numbers. We asked for 300,000 but he settled for 250,000.

Did any senior players ever mention to you about match-fixing?

Cronje: I can't recall anyone telling me that it was wrong. Crookes or Hudson did tell me about it, but no one told me anything really.

Of the three you mentioned, Hudson was the seniormost member?

Cronje: Cullinan has played more matches than Hudson, Darryl played for us before we came out of the isolation.

Did you get any directives with regard to the policy against match fixing?

Cronje: In 1995 till now the Code of Conduct mentioned that you are not allowed to have any contact with bookmakers or give information. The ICC has set rules and things have improved over the last 2-3 years.

In 1995 you said Gupta wanted information, what kind of information did he want?

Cronje: He wanted to know the conditions in Durban. I said that there is no hope that India will beat SA on this wicket. That is all I gave him.He called me everyday on the phone to ask me about things but I dont recall giving him any information.

SA won easily?

Cronje: Yes, as far as I remember, we won comfortably.

You said that money was transferred to your account?

Cronje: Yeah, to the Blomfontein branch, around $50,000 in Rand, give or take a few.

Cronje: I am not sure about the exact amount, not one hundred per cent sure.

There is a possibility that there were other payments made by Gupta?

Cronje: I am not sure.

149,000 Rand for two matches, which matches are we talking about?

Cronje: I am saying that I dont know the exact amount. For the first Test I got money for providing info on the pitch, for the second Test for what time we would declare. If they are related I am not sure.

And with that, the session stands adjourned for lunch, the Commission will begin proceedings again at 1400 IST.

Just before the adjournment, Cronje's lawyer says: Commissioner King, we have asked the auditors to verify this transfer. So far, he has not been able to. Once he has, I shall let you know. Commissioner: Thank you.

PART II: The post lunch session